Well, it sounds like our younger generation, no matter the religious background, is getting to be the epitome of the absurd. Both Jews and Christians are prime targets of Muslims and should be joining forces to fight the hate….but NOOOOOOO! Let’s start hating each other instead. :-( Now how STUPID is that?!? Good grief children! Stop wasting your lives on HATE.
If people read the Bible! Isiah 53:10, in the middle of the chapter which Christians agree points directly to Christ, are the words "yet it was the Lord's will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer, and though the Lord makes His life an offering for sin..."
The Jews didn't kill Christ. The Roman's didn't kill Christ. It was our sin. Yours and mine. Period.
Though aptly said, this does not deal with the facts of history.
Those facts, however, in this instance, are not that relevant. The killing of Christ was a story told for a purpose that had little or nothing to do with religious rivalries.
The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev.. 13:8. His death was known before humans came into existence.
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for YHWH, the father for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. Hebrews 2:10
We are flesh, we sin, we are not perfect. Messiah agreed to become flesh and obtain the eternal inheritance by suffering to be perfect and to remain sinless. What the Messiah has also obtained is the right to judge us and seal us, and bring the Father to the Earth to perfect us (and destroy those unprepared).
Very simply, the historical fact of Jesus accepting excruciating death illustrates that our Creator would do anything for us, despite our unsavory propensities.
This characteristic of Creator is echoed throughout the Old Testament, particularly by the prophets, and if you are one who accepts more inspired writings than the Torah, you’ll have seen this for sure.
I initially replied only because you completely missed the reason why people look upon Jesus as atonement. It is not to push responsibility for sins upon another.
It is not scapegoat.
Historically, the way that Jesus was operating within His contemporary milieu set up his demise. In short, he volunteered.
For Christians, this is an example that the Creator will do anything for his creatures.
Then, in s new paragraph, I turned to the characteristic of the Creator who the prophets said is endless in mercy. Moses noticed it too, by the way. He asked for it again and again for his people. Perhaps you might wish to split the translational hairs if you think that the Creator is not endless in mercy.
There is not an expectation that you would accept what Christians perceive about the nature of Jesus, but His existence and activities are at least as well documented as any ancient history that people readily accept.
First I enjoy intelligent discourse. I try to never give opinion I work on sharing the words and explanations of men of years gone by... but sometimes I get crazy and bring opinion.
Why do I think this? Because the Bible says so. I can ask to be forgiven, but I can't create a new heart in myself. Only the Creator can do that. The wages of sin is death. In order to fulfill this law, but to save me from eternal death, Christ died for me. A perfect sacrifice to atone for my imperfect life.
Do I understand all of this? No. Even the angels are in awe at the amazing love of God. But I accept His love and substitutionary sacrifice by faith.
Asking me to atone for myself is like asking me to jump to the moon. No can do!
Seriously, Yosef, why do you think I believe the Messiah sacrificed for us? And I thought I made it clear that those who aren't prepared would suffer a second death. "(and destroy those unprepared)"
The whole sacrificial service, starting with A & E, (Cain vs. Abel), then Abraham, on to the laws God gave to Moses, were a type - an example, looking forward to their fulfillment in the Messiah. A perfect lamb was required. When John the baptiser first saw Jesus, he said, "look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world!" Without an understanding of the sacrificial service, this would have made no sense. But the Jews understood.
Ms. Carol---excellent point . How would these people respond who hate Jews because the Jewish "elite" religious leaders were responsible for Christ's death when it is truthfully said that it was God's plan that Jesus was rejected and was put to death on the cross? Who are these people that they think they can reject God's plan because of who he chose to implement his plan ? So they are telling God that God screwed up by having Jews kill his son ? It was God's plan that Jesus would die for our sins so we would be able to enter Heaven. Would it have been better if the Romans had killed Jesus? Or maybe better yet, let Jesus' time on earth be delayed until Hitler was alive and let him do it or.....maybe Stalin or Mao ?
Hating Jews because they were responsible for Jesus' death is down right stoopid and ignorant all rolled into one.
Since flatlining and being saved by G-d, on Easter or Pesach Chol Ha-Moed, which adds a sense of humor, I see the world very differently... its almost as if I have a different set of eyes.
What Does It Mean to Sin?
Chatas (sin) doesn’t mean doing anything wrong, like we think. It means not doing what is right. That’s the real sin. We are not in this world to not commit sins; we are in this world to commit good deeds. Hashem says I sent you to this world to accomplish something: good character, maasim tovim (good deeds), and mitzvos (commandments). Chatas means the failure to achieve.
Christianity interprets these ideas differently. Its central claim is that Jesus' death functions as a final atoning sacrifice. The New Testament's Letter to the Hebrews explicitly develops this argument, describing earlier sacrifices as recurring while presenting Jesus' offering as occurring “once for all” (Hebrews 9–10).
Christian readings also commonly connect Jesus with the Passover lamb, Isaiah 53, and sacrificial imagery from Leviticus.
The fundamental disagreement
Judaism does not accept the Christian conclusion that the Torah's korbanot were ultimately pointing toward Jesus or that a human being's death is required for humanity to obtain forgiveness.
Christianity, conversely, generally understands the Torah's sacrificial system as anticipating or being fulfilled through Jesus.
One particularly important text in this disagreement is Leviticus 17:11:
“For the life of the flesh is in the blood…”
Christians sometimes cite this verse to argue that atonement requires blood. But reading the entire verse and its Torah context produces a more complicated picture: it explains why blood placed upon the altar has an atoning function; it does not simply state that God can never forgive without blood. Leviticus 5:11's flour chatat is particularly significant here.
The key is to distinguish what the Hebrew Bible says in its immediate context from how the New Testament and later Christianity interpret it. Christianity itself has different traditions, so the “Christian view” below summarizes common interpretations rather than every denomination.
I will share a common Christian interpretation and the traditional Torah interpretation
Genesis 22 — Akedas Yitzchak
Isaac carrying the wood and nearly being sacrificed foreshadows Jesus carrying the cross and being sacrificed by the Father.
The test demonstrates Avraham's obedience and Yitzchak's role in the covenant. Crucially, God stops the human sacrifice and a ram is offered instead.
Exodus 12 — Pesach lamb
The lamb's blood saving Israel from death foreshadows salvation through Jesus; the NT calls Jesus “our Passover” (1 Corinthians 5:7).
The Pesach offering commemorates the Exodus. Its blood was the sign associated with God's deliverance of Israel from Egypt. The Torah does not describe the Pesach lamb as a chatas (sin offering).
Leviticus 4 — Chatas
The shedding of blood for sin is viewed as anticipating Jesus' atoning death.
The chatas deals primarily with specified unintentional transgressions and ritual purification. It is one component of a much larger Torah system of atonement.
Leviticus 5:11–13 — Flour offering
Some Christians understand the flour as an exceptional substitute within a sacrificial system whose underlying principle remains atonement through sacrifice.
Particularly important against the claim that “there can be no forgiveness without blood.” A poor person can bring flour as a chatas, and the Torah explicitly says the Kohen makes atonement and the person is forgiven.
Leviticus 16 — Yom Kippur
The sacrifices and scapegoat (se'ir la-Azazel) are often understood as foreshadowing Jesus bearing humanity's sins.
This describes the annual Yom Kippur Temple service performed by the Kohen Gadol for Israel and the Sanctuary. The living goat carries the sins away; it is not presented as Jesus or a future messiah.
Leviticus 17:11 — “The blood makes atonement”
Frequently connected with the NT doctrine that Jesus' blood provides atonement for sin.
The verse explains why Israelites may not consume blood and why blood has an altar function: life is in the blood, and God assigned it to the altar for atonement. It does not say that God is incapable of forgiving without blood.
Numbers 15:22–31
Sacrificial atonement can be understood as anticipating the need for Christ's broader atonement.
Torah itself distinguishes unintentional sin from deliberate, defiant rebellion. The prescribed korban described here addresses the former, demonstrating that the sacrificial system is not simply “every sin requires blood.”
Deuteronomy 30:1–10 — Teshuvah
Christians generally affirm repentance but understand ultimate reconciliation with God through Christ.
Moshe says Israel can return to Hashem, obey Him, and receive His mercy. No future human sacrifice is mentioned as a prerequisite for Israel's return.
Isaiah 53 — Suffering servant
One of Christianity's most important messianic texts. The servant suffers for others, and Christians identify him with Jesus.
Jewish interpretations vary. A major traditional interpretation identifies the servant collectively with Israel, consistent with Isaiah repeatedly calling Israel God's servant (e.g., Isaiah 41:8–9; 44:1–2). Some Jewish sources apply aspects to an individual or Messiah, but not as the Christian doctrine of Jesus' sacrificial death.
Psalm 22
Christians see striking parallels between the suffering individual described in the Psalm and Jesus' crucifixion.
A Psalm of David, expressing extreme suffering followed by deliverance and praise of Hashem. Traditional Jewish interpretation does not treat it as a prediction that the Messiah must be crucified as an atoning sacrifice.
Three particularly important differences
1. Does Torah say “without blood there is no forgiveness”?
Not in those words. That statement comes from Hebrews 9:22 in the New Testament (“without shedding of blood…”), not from the Torah.
Leviticus 17:11 does say that God gave blood upon the altar to make atonement. But Leviticus 5:11–13 explicitly allows flour for a poor person's chatas and concludes that the Kohen makes atonement and the person is forgiven.
That makes the broader claim “Torah teaches God cannot forgive without blood” difficult to derive from Torah alone.
2. Is the Pesach lamb a sacrifice for sin?
This distinction is especially important.
In Exodus 12, the Pesach lamb protects Israel during the plague of the firstborn and becomes the perpetual commemoration of the Exodus.
It is not called a chatas.
Christianity subsequently gives the Passover lamb additional Christological significance and identifies Jesus with it.
3. Does Torah predict that the sacrificial system will be replaced by one human sacrifice?
The Torah itself does not explicitly say:
“One day the Messiah will die, his blood will replace the korbanos, and afterward animal sacrifices will no longer be necessary.”
That conclusion comes from the Christian interpretation of the Hebrew Bible through the New Testament, especially Hebrews.
This is therefore one of the deepest dividing lines:
Traditional Judaism: Teshuvah → return to Hashem → obedience → divine mercy/atonement, with korbanos functioning according to Torah when the Temple service exists.
Christianity: humanity's sin creates a problem ultimately resolved through Jesus' death and resurrection; the earlier sacrificial system is interpreted as anticipating that event.
One more critical issue: Isaiah 53
This is probably where the debate becomes most interesting because Christians will say, in effect:
“Even if Leviticus doesn't explicitly predict Jesus, Isaiah tells us that someone will suffer for the sins of others.”
Jewish interpreters respond that you cannot begin at Isaiah 53:1. You have to read the preceding chapters, where Isaiah repeatedly identifies Israel/Jacob as Hashem's servant.
That makes Isaiah 52:13–53:12 worth examining verse by verse in the original Hebrew, because some English Christian translations make interpretive choices that are not obvious from the Hebrew.
Read as a unit, Isaiah 52:13–53:12 produces two very different interpretive systems. Rashi explicitly identifies the servant with Jacob/Israel, particularly the righteous within Israel; the classic Christian reading identifies the servant with Jesus as the suffering Messiah. Rashi also understands much of chapter 53 as the nations looking back and realizing that they had misjudged Israel.
Here is the passage verse by verse. The English below is deliberately close to the Hebrew rather than tied to a particular Christian translation.
Thanks for a detailed accout of the difference in perception between the Jews and the Christians. I found it very insightful. I have a question. If the suffering servant refers to the nation and not the Messiah, how does this part fit in: "The Lord makes his life an offering for sin"? It seems singular, not plural.
My Jewish friend when he was about five 1940! was saved from the Gestapo by a Christian woman who claimed him as her own. The real issue today is beyond the borders of Israel. Extremists exist everywhere some more deadly than others.
Well done! As usual the truth of what’s really going on at every level is often a matter of people like you willing to take the time to investigate and communicate it to those of us who are willing to read it and sometimes recalibrate our viewpoint based on everything else we’ve been exposed to. It ain’t easy to know what to think about this and everything else that’s going on in the world. I like to think that your background and experience
The Armenians would be the ones going to jail. Look what is done when 'settlers' take over land of Christians, Muslims living in the West Bank (some there for decades). Wake up! Islamism and Zionism are 2 sides of the same coin. The intent by both is to wipe out Christianity.
I am awake, and your post is sheer nonsense. Islamists have the numbers to cause the mayhem and destruction we currently face, fear not, Zionists DO NOT.
First small z zionist are observant Jews who yearn to return to Yerushalayim
Capital Z Zionists ate a political party just like Democrat, Republican, Communist & Facists etc
Question... did the US attack Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria because of the Capital Z Zionists?
You didnt need to attack Iraq because of WMD's because Israel eliminated their nuclear program on June 7, 1981 by destroying thee Osirak nuclear research facility at the Tuwaitha Nuclear Research Center, located about 17 kilometers southeast of Baghdad
There are pretty many non-zionist Jews, but for sure the 10 to 1 ratio is not correct, because most of the world’s Christians are not attached to the political entity of Israel.
Take the Asian and South American Christians for example…
Ok, you are talking absolute numbers, not proportions. So the only reason there are more zionist Christians than Jews is that there are vastly more Christians than Jews. Other than the U.S., I still suggest that most of the world’s Christians are not worked up about it.
I had a Curious Thing happen in 2022 flying from Tel Aviv to New York. I was flying alone as 70-year-old female US citizen. I had just completed a fabulous two week pilgrimage tour to Israel. People had been kind every step of the way. I boarded in my assigned seat on a large Airline with five seats across the middle section. I had an aisle seat. The plane was completely packed. As I settled in I became aware that there were four Orthodox Jewish men, the ones with dark coats and big hats, standing in the aisle. I got the feeling they were looking at me but I couldn't figure out why. Soon a stewardess came up to me and whispered don't make eye contact and don't do anything and don't move. I knew that then I was indeed being stared at by these four men. It ended up they were refusing to sit on the same aisle that I was on and they wanted me to move seats. The stewardesses went to bat for me but it was very uncomfortable. Had there been a seat I could move to I would have moved promptly but the plane was full. Finally the captain came on and said everyone had to be seated immediately or the flight might be aborted. The four men continued to stand in the aisle glaring at me.
One thing that really confused me was this was an El Al flight and surely the airline would have worked out this problem of Orthodox men refusing to be seated next to a single woman if that is some sort of rule in their belief system. But everyone acted confused and it was very uncomfortable as I sat there trying not to make eye contact as the stewardesses argued in my favor. Finally an elderly man wearing the same outfit as the four men who were refusing to be seated, came from the front of the plane and very politely asked if I would switch seats with him. I have never moved so fast in my life and this gentleman took my seat and I walked forward and took his and the problem was solved. It was all very strange and I never quite understood what was going on but those 4 men were not going to sit in the same row where I was sitting. At 70 years old, I can assure you there was nothing sinful about me! It was the only negative thing that happened my entire 2 weeks in Israel.
Wow. I don't remember all the Orthodox Jewish rules and laws from OT (and none from their own made up rules) but I know somewhere in there is respect of the elderly and you certainly couldn't have been "unclean" (in the aspect of women) so I wonder what that was all about. Chances are they sat with people far "worse" because of their own stiff necks. In truth, that exact behavior is what nailed Jesus to the cross... I can well imagine how uncomfortable you must have been! Glad the one with a real heart stood up to resolve the situation.
I'm not sure but I believe the stewardesses approached older man dressed like them but he was sitting way up front. I think they got him to come back and offer to swap seats because otherwise the entire flight was getting ready to be aborted. It was very strange!
In the meantime, 30 Nigerian Christians were murdered by ISIS. Where's the outrage? While we're debating about spittle Christians are being slaughtered by Muslims all over the world with nery a peep.
Thank you for the clarification. Carlson has become a desperate man for relevance since leaving Network TV. He is starved for attention and has no compunction in sensationalizing a story for "clicks". It is somewhat sad to see him "morph" into the same distorted "yellow" journalism that we have so long criticized coming from the Left.
I will continue to observe Tucker. Like all other reporters he has his biases. In short, he has a Qatar asterisk, but much of his coverage remains useful.
In the Bible, 'The Jews" refers to the leadership, the Pharisees and Sadducees, not the common people. So did they play a role during the crucifixion? Of course. Does that mean all Jews are to blame in some way? Of course not.
Mr. Jonathan----you are quite logical. Unfortunately logic is something that is lacking in what seems to be a majority of adults today.
Sort of like blaming the millions of people who voted for Trump in 2020 for all the stupid crap that got done by Biden and his handlers from 2020-2024.
Sure, Biden got more votes than anyone before or since 2020 but still only won by roughly 100K votes in total spread over several states.
I would not presume that their parents are tolerant of this. Apparently since Covid, which was followed by the war, Israel has a lot of disaffected youth who are causing distress to their families and the state.
Wow! Great sleuthing through the layers and holding all the complex and contradictory info in multiple working hypotheses.
I’m guessing no one there drives around with “Coexist” bumper stickers?
If you’re St. Paul, trying to preach and spread the Gospel of an illegal and underground church in a Mediterranean controlled by Rome, to whom are you going to attribute responsibility? Sales 101.
Yea!! This is the article I've been waiting for. I have been educationally enlightened by the other articles, for sure, but this one saying "Both things can be true at the same time" is, as before, a Malone document laying out the facts, actually using the 'both things' sentence and allowing us to learn from them. Here it says there is a more Zionist faction, a more restrictive faction who are not the "total Israeli population" but ruling body(ies) within, with the "Israeli Minister of National Security condoning or at least not condemning the actions of those sects. So much more layered than most accounts reveal. I am most grateful for this learning and growing opportunity!
Oops. Especially with COVID puts you in a good position to have a dispassionate viewpoint. But it’s taking you six articles to establish it. Maybe your “sound-byte” like “funnies” regarding this issue had jaded me but this specific article although it confirmed a lot of what I had heard already was expressed to perfection.
I have to confess I find this spitting on and cursing incredibly childish. Physical assaults and property damage are likely worthy of legal action. Here again, to a lesser degree we have elders training and inciting their youth to hostile actions (albeit to a much lesser degree than with the Iranian sponsored groups).
Your review of "the actual facts and extent" here is outstanding and needs to be provided to every person paying attention and/or in a position to take meaningful action on these matters!
I am admittedly very hostile to anti inadequately informed hostilities including anti-semitism.
I don't hold myself out as having sufficient familiarity with the bible to dive in and offer support for my understandings.
That said my understanding is God held responsibilities for judgments onto himself.
Thus it is God who would judge the immediate perpetrators of the crucifixion and any subsequent peoples involved.
I don't hold those without personal involvements culpable for the acts of their elders. IE - for example - No reparations.
I hope that eventually some adults will take on these issues and your discussion here will be a meaningful insight for their considerations.
"The public outcry began after footage circulated showing ultra-Orthodox individuals spitting on the ground as Christian pilgrims and clergy passed by in the Old City of Jerusalem"
" Ben Gvir gave a radio interview defending the practice of spitting at Christian monks and churches. He called it an ancient Jewish tradition, said he did not think it constituted a violation, and asked why anyone would turn the matter into a criminal one"
I agree, spitting on the ground is not a criminal matter.
Spitting at a person is a different issue. However let me ask how widespread and severe violence against Christians in Jerusalem compared to violence against Jews in New York or Michigan How often such crimes are punished in the US?
I happened to be in Jerusalem on September 27, 2018. Roughly 7,000 Christian Evangelicals from over 100 countries gathered in Jerusalem to participate in the annual Feast of Tabernacles march hosted by the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem (ICEJ). I can't upload my own photos in the chat, here is what I found.
I was in Jerusalem on the 4th of October 2023, and there was another march of Christian pilgrims, just days before the infamous terror attack on the 7th. The streets of Jerusalem were blocked off by the Israeli municipal council to allow the march to be held and a huge crowd of people were gathered to welcome them to the city. Israeli Jews were overwhelmingly supportive and celebrating the occasion. I always think of that day when I hear of people complaining about the treatment of Christians in Israel.
Of course that doesn’t deal with the extremism. We encourage what we tolerate.
Well, it sounds like our younger generation, no matter the religious background, is getting to be the epitome of the absurd. Both Jews and Christians are prime targets of Muslims and should be joining forces to fight the hate….but NOOOOOOO! Let’s start hating each other instead. :-( Now how STUPID is that?!? Good grief children! Stop wasting your lives on HATE.
If people read the Bible! Isiah 53:10, in the middle of the chapter which Christians agree points directly to Christ, are the words "yet it was the Lord's will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer, and though the Lord makes His life an offering for sin..."
The Jews didn't kill Christ. The Roman's didn't kill Christ. It was our sin. Yours and mine. Period.
Thank you :)
Though aptly said, this does not deal with the facts of history.
Those facts, however, in this instance, are not that relevant. The killing of Christ was a story told for a purpose that had little or nothing to do with religious rivalries.
The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev.. 13:8. His death was known before humans came into existence.
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for YHWH, the father for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. Hebrews 2:10
We are flesh, we sin, we are not perfect. Messiah agreed to become flesh and obtain the eternal inheritance by suffering to be perfect and to remain sinless. What the Messiah has also obtained is the right to judge us and seal us, and bring the Father to the Earth to perfect us (and destroy those unprepared).
Why do you think a dead jew or anyone can atone for your sins or mine.
Atonement is up to each individual... the rest is you trying to lay your sins on another.
Very simply, the historical fact of Jesus accepting excruciating death illustrates that our Creator would do anything for us, despite our unsavory propensities.
This characteristic of Creator is echoed throughout the Old Testament, particularly by the prophets, and if you are one who accepts more inspired writings than the Torah, you’ll have seen this for sure.
We may read the same things but we are very different
First what version of the 10,000 translations of the Tanakh do you read? Septuagint by chance?
Second reading it in English and not Lashon HaKodesh or Hebrew leaves you at the same disadvantage as the WNBA against the NBA
The moment you bring Jesus & not G-d we diverge. Moses is our greatest prophet/teacher, but we dont pray to or rely on him, we ONLY rely on G-d
I initially replied only because you completely missed the reason why people look upon Jesus as atonement. It is not to push responsibility for sins upon another.
It is not scapegoat.
Historically, the way that Jesus was operating within His contemporary milieu set up his demise. In short, he volunteered.
For Christians, this is an example that the Creator will do anything for his creatures.
Then, in s new paragraph, I turned to the characteristic of the Creator who the prophets said is endless in mercy. Moses noticed it too, by the way. He asked for it again and again for his people. Perhaps you might wish to split the translational hairs if you think that the Creator is not endless in mercy.
There is not an expectation that you would accept what Christians perceive about the nature of Jesus, but His existence and activities are at least as well documented as any ancient history that people readily accept.
First I enjoy intelligent discourse. I try to never give opinion I work on sharing the words and explanations of men of years gone by... but sometimes I get crazy and bring opinion.
Why do I think this? Because the Bible says so. I can ask to be forgiven, but I can't create a new heart in myself. Only the Creator can do that. The wages of sin is death. In order to fulfill this law, but to save me from eternal death, Christ died for me. A perfect sacrifice to atone for my imperfect life.
Do I understand all of this? No. Even the angels are in awe at the amazing love of God. But I accept His love and substitutionary sacrifice by faith.
Asking me to atone for myself is like asking me to jump to the moon. No can do!
P.S. That "dead Jew" isn't dead anymore!!!
Seriously, Yosef, why do you think I believe the Messiah sacrificed for us? And I thought I made it clear that those who aren't prepared would suffer a second death. "(and destroy those unprepared)"
Idol worshipping is against the Bible, good luck
YHWH says we aren't to worship idols. It is a sin.
I don't follow how that applies to what I said.
The whole sacrificial service, starting with A & E, (Cain vs. Abel), then Abraham, on to the laws God gave to Moses, were a type - an example, looking forward to their fulfillment in the Messiah. A perfect lamb was required. When John the baptiser first saw Jesus, he said, "look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world!" Without an understanding of the sacrificial service, this would have made no sense. But the Jews understood.
Ms. Carol---excellent point . How would these people respond who hate Jews because the Jewish "elite" religious leaders were responsible for Christ's death when it is truthfully said that it was God's plan that Jesus was rejected and was put to death on the cross? Who are these people that they think they can reject God's plan because of who he chose to implement his plan ? So they are telling God that God screwed up by having Jews kill his son ? It was God's plan that Jesus would die for our sins so we would be able to enter Heaven. Would it have been better if the Romans had killed Jesus? Or maybe better yet, let Jesus' time on earth be delayed until Hitler was alive and let him do it or.....maybe Stalin or Mao ?
Hating Jews because they were responsible for Jesus' death is down right stoopid and ignorant all rolled into one.
Exodus 4:22
"Hating Jews because they were responsible for Jesus' death is down right stoopid and ignorant all rolled into one."
AGREED
Who are these people that they think they can reject God's plan because of who he chose to implement his plan ?
A million percent right
PART 1
Sin, atonement, sacrifice.
Since flatlining and being saved by G-d, on Easter or Pesach Chol Ha-Moed, which adds a sense of humor, I see the world very differently... its almost as if I have a different set of eyes.
What Does It Mean to Sin?
Chatas (sin) doesn’t mean doing anything wrong, like we think. It means not doing what is right. That’s the real sin. We are not in this world to not commit sins; we are in this world to commit good deeds. Hashem says I sent you to this world to accomplish something: good character, maasim tovim (good deeds), and mitzvos (commandments). Chatas means the failure to achieve.
Christianity interprets these ideas differently. Its central claim is that Jesus' death functions as a final atoning sacrifice. The New Testament's Letter to the Hebrews explicitly develops this argument, describing earlier sacrifices as recurring while presenting Jesus' offering as occurring “once for all” (Hebrews 9–10).
Christian readings also commonly connect Jesus with the Passover lamb, Isaiah 53, and sacrificial imagery from Leviticus.
The fundamental disagreement
Judaism does not accept the Christian conclusion that the Torah's korbanot were ultimately pointing toward Jesus or that a human being's death is required for humanity to obtain forgiveness.
Christianity, conversely, generally understands the Torah's sacrificial system as anticipating or being fulfilled through Jesus.
One particularly important text in this disagreement is Leviticus 17:11:
“For the life of the flesh is in the blood…”
Christians sometimes cite this verse to argue that atonement requires blood. But reading the entire verse and its Torah context produces a more complicated picture: it explains why blood placed upon the altar has an atoning function; it does not simply state that God can never forgive without blood. Leviticus 5:11's flour chatat is particularly significant here.
The key is to distinguish what the Hebrew Bible says in its immediate context from how the New Testament and later Christianity interpret it. Christianity itself has different traditions, so the “Christian view” below summarizes common interpretations rather than every denomination.
I will share a common Christian interpretation and the traditional Torah interpretation
Genesis 22 — Akedas Yitzchak
Isaac carrying the wood and nearly being sacrificed foreshadows Jesus carrying the cross and being sacrificed by the Father.
The test demonstrates Avraham's obedience and Yitzchak's role in the covenant. Crucially, God stops the human sacrifice and a ram is offered instead.
Exodus 12 — Pesach lamb
The lamb's blood saving Israel from death foreshadows salvation through Jesus; the NT calls Jesus “our Passover” (1 Corinthians 5:7).
The Pesach offering commemorates the Exodus. Its blood was the sign associated with God's deliverance of Israel from Egypt. The Torah does not describe the Pesach lamb as a chatas (sin offering).
Leviticus 4 — Chatas
The shedding of blood for sin is viewed as anticipating Jesus' atoning death.
The chatas deals primarily with specified unintentional transgressions and ritual purification. It is one component of a much larger Torah system of atonement.
Leviticus 5:11–13 — Flour offering
Some Christians understand the flour as an exceptional substitute within a sacrificial system whose underlying principle remains atonement through sacrifice.
Particularly important against the claim that “there can be no forgiveness without blood.” A poor person can bring flour as a chatas, and the Torah explicitly says the Kohen makes atonement and the person is forgiven.
Leviticus 16 — Yom Kippur
The sacrifices and scapegoat (se'ir la-Azazel) are often understood as foreshadowing Jesus bearing humanity's sins.
This describes the annual Yom Kippur Temple service performed by the Kohen Gadol for Israel and the Sanctuary. The living goat carries the sins away; it is not presented as Jesus or a future messiah.
Leviticus 17:11 — “The blood makes atonement”
Frequently connected with the NT doctrine that Jesus' blood provides atonement for sin.
The verse explains why Israelites may not consume blood and why blood has an altar function: life is in the blood, and God assigned it to the altar for atonement. It does not say that God is incapable of forgiving without blood.
Numbers 15:22–31
Sacrificial atonement can be understood as anticipating the need for Christ's broader atonement.
Torah itself distinguishes unintentional sin from deliberate, defiant rebellion. The prescribed korban described here addresses the former, demonstrating that the sacrificial system is not simply “every sin requires blood.”
Deuteronomy 30:1–10 — Teshuvah
Christians generally affirm repentance but understand ultimate reconciliation with God through Christ.
Moshe says Israel can return to Hashem, obey Him, and receive His mercy. No future human sacrifice is mentioned as a prerequisite for Israel's return.
Isaiah 53 — Suffering servant
One of Christianity's most important messianic texts. The servant suffers for others, and Christians identify him with Jesus.
Jewish interpretations vary. A major traditional interpretation identifies the servant collectively with Israel, consistent with Isaiah repeatedly calling Israel God's servant (e.g., Isaiah 41:8–9; 44:1–2). Some Jewish sources apply aspects to an individual or Messiah, but not as the Christian doctrine of Jesus' sacrificial death.
Psalm 22
Christians see striking parallels between the suffering individual described in the Psalm and Jesus' crucifixion.
A Psalm of David, expressing extreme suffering followed by deliverance and praise of Hashem. Traditional Jewish interpretation does not treat it as a prediction that the Messiah must be crucified as an atoning sacrifice.
Three particularly important differences
1. Does Torah say “without blood there is no forgiveness”?
Not in those words. That statement comes from Hebrews 9:22 in the New Testament (“without shedding of blood…”), not from the Torah.
Leviticus 17:11 does say that God gave blood upon the altar to make atonement. But Leviticus 5:11–13 explicitly allows flour for a poor person's chatas and concludes that the Kohen makes atonement and the person is forgiven.
That makes the broader claim “Torah teaches God cannot forgive without blood” difficult to derive from Torah alone.
2. Is the Pesach lamb a sacrifice for sin?
This distinction is especially important.
In Exodus 12, the Pesach lamb protects Israel during the plague of the firstborn and becomes the perpetual commemoration of the Exodus.
It is not called a chatas.
Christianity subsequently gives the Passover lamb additional Christological significance and identifies Jesus with it.
3. Does Torah predict that the sacrificial system will be replaced by one human sacrifice?
The Torah itself does not explicitly say:
“One day the Messiah will die, his blood will replace the korbanos, and afterward animal sacrifices will no longer be necessary.”
That conclusion comes from the Christian interpretation of the Hebrew Bible through the New Testament, especially Hebrews.
This is therefore one of the deepest dividing lines:
Traditional Judaism: Teshuvah → return to Hashem → obedience → divine mercy/atonement, with korbanos functioning according to Torah when the Temple service exists.
Christianity: humanity's sin creates a problem ultimately resolved through Jesus' death and resurrection; the earlier sacrificial system is interpreted as anticipating that event.
One more critical issue: Isaiah 53
This is probably where the debate becomes most interesting because Christians will say, in effect:
“Even if Leviticus doesn't explicitly predict Jesus, Isaiah tells us that someone will suffer for the sins of others.”
Jewish interpreters respond that you cannot begin at Isaiah 53:1. You have to read the preceding chapters, where Isaiah repeatedly identifies Israel/Jacob as Hashem's servant.
That makes Isaiah 52:13–53:12 worth examining verse by verse in the original Hebrew, because some English Christian translations make interpretive choices that are not obvious from the Hebrew.
Read as a unit, Isaiah 52:13–53:12 produces two very different interpretive systems. Rashi explicitly identifies the servant with Jacob/Israel, particularly the righteous within Israel; the classic Christian reading identifies the servant with Jesus as the suffering Messiah. Rashi also understands much of chapter 53 as the nations looking back and realizing that they had misjudged Israel.
Here is the passage verse by verse. The English below is deliberately close to the Hebrew rather than tied to a particular Christian translation.
Thanks for a detailed accout of the difference in perception between the Jews and the Christians. I found it very insightful. I have a question. If the suffering servant refers to the nation and not the Messiah, how does this part fit in: "The Lord makes his life an offering for sin"? It seems singular, not plural.
Helicopter religion is as foolish as replacement theology.
My Jewish friend when he was about five 1940! was saved from the Gestapo by a Christian woman who claimed him as her own. The real issue today is beyond the borders of Israel. Extremists exist everywhere some more deadly than others.
Well done! As usual the truth of what’s really going on at every level is often a matter of people like you willing to take the time to investigate and communicate it to those of us who are willing to read it and sometimes recalibrate our viewpoint based on everything else we’ve been exposed to. It ain’t easy to know what to think about this and everything else that’s going on in the world. I like to think that your background and experience
Wonder what the outcome would be if some spit upon armenians beat the living crap out of he spitters.
The Armenians would be the ones going to jail. Look what is done when 'settlers' take over land of Christians, Muslims living in the West Bank (some there for decades). Wake up! Islamism and Zionism are 2 sides of the same coin. The intent by both is to wipe out Christianity.
I am awake, and your post is sheer nonsense. Islamists have the numbers to cause the mayhem and destruction we currently face, fear not, Zionists DO NOT.
Your post is utter nonsense. The Islamists wouldn't be a problem to us, if we didn't blow up their families and friends for the zionists.
Lol
First small z zionist are observant Jews who yearn to return to Yerushalayim
Capital Z Zionists ate a political party just like Democrat, Republican, Communist & Facists etc
Question... did the US attack Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria because of the Capital Z Zionists?
You didnt need to attack Iraq because of WMD's because Israel eliminated their nuclear program on June 7, 1981 by destroying thee Osirak nuclear research facility at the Tuwaitha Nuclear Research Center, located about 17 kilometers southeast of Baghdad
Bush Cheney CIA lied to you.
Afghanistan is a bigger joke.
But you blame who?
Tidwell (Johnny come lately to the thread) is probably a Pakistani bot…you know with those “sources.” Like I’ll read anything aljazeera has to say.
Al Jazeera is fake news Muslim style.
And it Tidwell needs to use YouTube to prove his points, then who cares what he shares
We have elmer fudd show up now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo6u9DpASp8
Where shall we start? https://www.bitchute.com/video/23J0hZF3dVbS/ or maybe here? https://rumble.com/v6yrfga-numec-how-israel-stole-the-atomic-bomb-and-killed-jfk.html
Oh yeah, remember our greatest ally? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2003/9/22/us-plans-to-attack-seven-muslim-states
The Israeli Zionists are your only ally in the Middle East
ps... I am no capital Z Zionist
You do know more Christians are Zionists than Jews by at least 10 to 1
There are pretty many non-zionist Jews, but for sure the 10 to 1 ratio is not correct, because most of the world’s Christians are not attached to the political entity of Israel.
Take the Asian and South American Christians for example…
16 million Jews on earth with approximately 8 million are capital Z Zionists
In America alone there are approximately 60 million capital Z Zionists
Thats 7x's... the rest of the world covers the balance
Ok, you are talking absolute numbers, not proportions. So the only reason there are more zionist Christians than Jews is that there are vastly more Christians than Jews. Other than the U.S., I still suggest that most of the world’s Christians are not worked up about it.
Even if that were so. The so called “peaceful Muslims” are peaceful until they’re not, there is no comparison.
Then we have those "peaceful jews' eh?
https://rumble.com/v7b06gi-thomas-massie-just-blew-up-the-official-uss-liberty-story.html
We experienced that for hundreds of years during the diaspora. Doesn't make what these kids are doing right but does help explain it.
I had a Curious Thing happen in 2022 flying from Tel Aviv to New York. I was flying alone as 70-year-old female US citizen. I had just completed a fabulous two week pilgrimage tour to Israel. People had been kind every step of the way. I boarded in my assigned seat on a large Airline with five seats across the middle section. I had an aisle seat. The plane was completely packed. As I settled in I became aware that there were four Orthodox Jewish men, the ones with dark coats and big hats, standing in the aisle. I got the feeling they were looking at me but I couldn't figure out why. Soon a stewardess came up to me and whispered don't make eye contact and don't do anything and don't move. I knew that then I was indeed being stared at by these four men. It ended up they were refusing to sit on the same aisle that I was on and they wanted me to move seats. The stewardesses went to bat for me but it was very uncomfortable. Had there been a seat I could move to I would have moved promptly but the plane was full. Finally the captain came on and said everyone had to be seated immediately or the flight might be aborted. The four men continued to stand in the aisle glaring at me.
One thing that really confused me was this was an El Al flight and surely the airline would have worked out this problem of Orthodox men refusing to be seated next to a single woman if that is some sort of rule in their belief system. But everyone acted confused and it was very uncomfortable as I sat there trying not to make eye contact as the stewardesses argued in my favor. Finally an elderly man wearing the same outfit as the four men who were refusing to be seated, came from the front of the plane and very politely asked if I would switch seats with him. I have never moved so fast in my life and this gentleman took my seat and I walked forward and took his and the problem was solved. It was all very strange and I never quite understood what was going on but those 4 men were not going to sit in the same row where I was sitting. At 70 years old, I can assure you there was nothing sinful about me! It was the only negative thing that happened my entire 2 weeks in Israel.
Wow. I don't remember all the Orthodox Jewish rules and laws from OT (and none from their own made up rules) but I know somewhere in there is respect of the elderly and you certainly couldn't have been "unclean" (in the aspect of women) so I wonder what that was all about. Chances are they sat with people far "worse" because of their own stiff necks. In truth, that exact behavior is what nailed Jesus to the cross... I can well imagine how uncomfortable you must have been! Glad the one with a real heart stood up to resolve the situation.
I'm not sure but I believe the stewardesses approached older man dressed like them but he was sitting way up front. I think they got him to come back and offer to swap seats because otherwise the entire flight was getting ready to be aborted. It was very strange!
In the meantime, 30 Nigerian Christians were murdered by ISIS. Where's the outrage? While we're debating about spittle Christians are being slaughtered by Muslims all over the world with nery a peep.
Thank you for the clarification. Carlson has become a desperate man for relevance since leaving Network TV. He is starved for attention and has no compunction in sensationalizing a story for "clicks". It is somewhat sad to see him "morph" into the same distorted "yellow" journalism that we have so long criticized coming from the Left.
I agree. I have totally stopped watching anything Tucker Carlson has to say.
I will continue to observe Tucker. Like all other reporters he has his biases. In short, he has a Qatar asterisk, but much of his coverage remains useful.
I quit my membership, because I want him to know that not every former fan likes his new stances.
Makes sense to save your subscription money for what you like.
I bagged Disney 3 decades ago. No Netflix here.
😎
Thank you for the education. Israel appears to be a complicated place to live, though more so if you know very little about it and its history. A
In the Bible, 'The Jews" refers to the leadership, the Pharisees and Sadducees, not the common people. So did they play a role during the crucifixion? Of course. Does that mean all Jews are to blame in some way? Of course not.
Mr. Jonathan----you are quite logical. Unfortunately logic is something that is lacking in what seems to be a majority of adults today.
Sort of like blaming the millions of people who voted for Trump in 2020 for all the stupid crap that got done by Biden and his handlers from 2020-2024.
Sure, Biden got more votes than anyone before or since 2020 but still only won by roughly 100K votes in total spread over several states.
Why can’t all parents teach children to respect others no matter what their race or religion? Do Unto Others…
How much respect do you think Haredi Jews get? Now and in the past? So they are treating others as they are treated.
This is not acceptable really
I would not presume that their parents are tolerant of this. Apparently since Covid, which was followed by the war, Israel has a lot of disaffected youth who are causing distress to their families and the state.
Wow! Great sleuthing through the layers and holding all the complex and contradictory info in multiple working hypotheses.
I’m guessing no one there drives around with “Coexist” bumper stickers?
If you’re St. Paul, trying to preach and spread the Gospel of an illegal and underground church in a Mediterranean controlled by Rome, to whom are you going to attribute responsibility? Sales 101.
right :)
Yea!! This is the article I've been waiting for. I have been educationally enlightened by the other articles, for sure, but this one saying "Both things can be true at the same time" is, as before, a Malone document laying out the facts, actually using the 'both things' sentence and allowing us to learn from them. Here it says there is a more Zionist faction, a more restrictive faction who are not the "total Israeli population" but ruling body(ies) within, with the "Israeli Minister of National Security condoning or at least not condemning the actions of those sects. So much more layered than most accounts reveal. I am most grateful for this learning and growing opportunity!
Oops. Especially with COVID puts you in a good position to have a dispassionate viewpoint. But it’s taking you six articles to establish it. Maybe your “sound-byte” like “funnies” regarding this issue had jaded me but this specific article although it confirmed a lot of what I had heard already was expressed to perfection.
Glad you stuck!!
I have to confess I find this spitting on and cursing incredibly childish. Physical assaults and property damage are likely worthy of legal action. Here again, to a lesser degree we have elders training and inciting their youth to hostile actions (albeit to a much lesser degree than with the Iranian sponsored groups).
Your review of "the actual facts and extent" here is outstanding and needs to be provided to every person paying attention and/or in a position to take meaningful action on these matters!
I am admittedly very hostile to anti inadequately informed hostilities including anti-semitism.
I don't hold myself out as having sufficient familiarity with the bible to dive in and offer support for my understandings.
That said my understanding is God held responsibilities for judgments onto himself.
Thus it is God who would judge the immediate perpetrators of the crucifixion and any subsequent peoples involved.
I don't hold those without personal involvements culpable for the acts of their elders. IE - for example - No reparations.
I hope that eventually some adults will take on these issues and your discussion here will be a meaningful insight for their considerations.
I think we need a small correction:
"The public outcry began after footage circulated showing ultra-Orthodox individuals spitting on the ground as Christian pilgrims and clergy passed by in the Old City of Jerusalem"
" Ben Gvir gave a radio interview defending the practice of spitting at Christian monks and churches. He called it an ancient Jewish tradition, said he did not think it constituted a violation, and asked why anyone would turn the matter into a criminal one"
I agree, spitting on the ground is not a criminal matter.
Spitting at a person is a different issue. However let me ask how widespread and severe violence against Christians in Jerusalem compared to violence against Jews in New York or Michigan How often such crimes are punished in the US?
I happened to be in Jerusalem on September 27, 2018. Roughly 7,000 Christian Evangelicals from over 100 countries gathered in Jerusalem to participate in the annual Feast of Tabernacles march hosted by the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem (ICEJ). I can't upload my own photos in the chat, here is what I found.
https://www.jpost.com/christianworld/article-703462
Such a moving, uplifting experience. I've talked to some of them after the march. They all paid themselves for travel
However, I agree that the criminal enforcement when' is appropriate and shaming in other cases such as spitting on the ground is overdue.
I was in Jerusalem on the 4th of October 2023, and there was another march of Christian pilgrims, just days before the infamous terror attack on the 7th. The streets of Jerusalem were blocked off by the Israeli municipal council to allow the march to be held and a huge crowd of people were gathered to welcome them to the city. Israeli Jews were overwhelmingly supportive and celebrating the occasion. I always think of that day when I hear of people complaining about the treatment of Christians in Israel.
Of course that doesn’t deal with the extremism. We encourage what we tolerate.
No, spitting at or on anyone is not right. Remember, the Messiah was spit upon, and worse. And yet, "...he opened not his mouth to revile..."
Is 50:5,6. The Lord GOD has opened my ear,
and I was not rebellious;
I turned not backward.
I gave my back to those who strike,
and my cheeks to those who pull out the beard;
I hid not my face
from disgrace and spitting.